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Technical specs for SYS1 boards
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alphajetsim



Joined: 08 Apr 2007
Posts: 30
Location: Arlington, Washington

PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 4:57 pm    Post subject: Technical specs for SYS1 boards Reply with quote

Are there any technical specs for the FDS-SYS1 boards?

One thing I'm trying to find out is if the LED output on the SYS1 board is a Logic signal or "just 2.2v". Does anyone know?

If I'm successfulful at integrating the FDS-SYS1 into my flight simulator (using it's existing circuitry) then Flight Deck solution will have a sweet promo to add to their list of achievements.

For example, all of the lights in the simulator are 24vDC. Instead of pulling them out and replacing them with LEDs, we're going to use the existing simulator circuitry to turn them on. The existing circuitry had a low volt signal from the old computer trigger a darlington pair transister, which in turn would energize a relay that would then close the ground circuite to the 24v light in the cockpit.

However after connecting the FDS-SYS board LED output to the Darlington Pair, the relay simply buzzes.

We verified that 1.6vDC from a testbed power supply will trigger the Darlington Pair and energize the relay.

What is different between the 1.6vDC from the power supply and the 2vDC from the FDS-SYS board? (The Darlington pair can handle up to 2.4v)

Are there any ET's can help on this one?
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Michal



Joined: 02 Oct 2006
Posts: 234
Location: USA

PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a pulsed output. That's why your relay contacts are bouncing.

This is what is preventing me from using the Sys boards for my sim. My stuff is all 28VDC.

There are other ways. I'll PM you if you are interested.
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pcos
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Joined: 03 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 11:20 pm    Post subject: Tech Support Reply with quote

If I may.. I would like to have a chance to discuss my product with My customers.
Alpha, There is a posted FAQ here:
http://www.flightdecksolutions.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2945
Michal,
I think when you are trying to place our product outside the scope of its design you need to qualify your statements a hair more please. You have a specific requirement that is not within the scope of what we are offering with the SYS line of cards. This is like you buying a Volkswagon Beetle and then complaining that it is not very good at hauling large amounts of manure..
"writing off the boards" for using pulsed outputs may be ok in your mind but the majority of users/builders out here greatly benefit from these setups.. Cost as well as simplivity. Please consider that when you comment. Sometimes a quick comment can be misunderstood.
Many of the builders are just venturing into the whole interfacing part of this and are very concerned about choosing the right devices....
You chose the path of real parts.. That means you have challneges you need to face and deal with. All part of the pursuit Smile
Please don't forget the other 95% of the builders out here that can and will likely use devices of this nature.
These boards have a very claer mission and are doing well in that. Perhaps not fitting your needs.. on the 28 volt devices. I am sure you have all sorts of things to interface and you might be looking at the other requirements laters.

Alpha,
Allow me to cover some of the technical end of this as per your post.
In order to handle 256 LED outputs and 64 inputs we use a Matrix setup as well as "scanning". Scanning allows us to pulse the LED outputs at a very high rate of speed. This speed is high enough that when using LEDs (as we designed for) you do not see them pulsing. Human eye cannot detect. Switches are handled the same way. Pulsed and "polled" for status.
This is an ideal way to handle high numbers of inputs and outputs which is exactly what we describe and promote this board as and for. "Large Input/Output" capability..
For real parts there are other elements in play. One being voltages. 28volt devices are not something ever even considered for the SYS line of cards. Totally outside of the scope.
There are all sorts of ways to interface items. Gauges, Pots, Rotary Encoders.. all sorts of items outside the scope of what we intended for the SYS line. Trying to get one card to do everything was very expensive and for our long term plans made no sense.
They are designed for the common setups that we are using and seeing others use. Our target was to get the builders an easy to use system that wold work with the devices 90% of the group is using.
At some point, if we see a trend that substantiates the investment to go into 28 volt devices and constant power outputs we certainly will .
We would like to help cover all the bases out here as best we can.
Trying to utilize real aircraft parts that have electrical demands previously filled by real power sources, generators etc.. Pretty tricky from one USB output..
As long as there is scanning required to handle that many outputs you cannot have a constant power state of ON. Simply will not work that way.
Please feel free to email me if you wish to discuss Alpha.
PC
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alphajetsim



Joined: 08 Apr 2007
Posts: 30
Location: Arlington, Washington

PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 12:44 am    Post subject: Excellent Responses! Reply with quote

Mike, thanks for the info, I started thinking "I wonder if they are pulsing..." Keep an eye on my website because when I come up with a solution I'll post it there for ya.


Peter,
Please don't missunderstand my posts, I am by no means upset nor dissapointed with the Flight Deck solutions product. I think it is performing exactly as advertised and I'm very happy with it.

I totally understand your companys position of a target market and such, so no need to justify anything. honestly, if I hadn't stumbled upon your website I never would have taken on the task of rebuilding this flight simulator.

So for everyone who reads these, please understand I'm not at all complaining about the FDS-SYS products. Laughing

So, all that being said, I hope I can still draw from the knowledge capital at FDS so I can blaze new territory.

Besides, no need to provide 24v or 28 v output, when a steady 2v signal will provide all the power a low voltage transistor needs to actuate a relay that handles the larger power supply. Very Happy Which is exactly what I'm going to try to produce.

I'll talk to one of the ET's at a local electrical shop and see what one of the guru's can suggest for smoothing out the pulse. Wink

- Ron
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alphajetsim



Joined: 08 Apr 2007
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Location: Arlington, Washington

PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 12:52 am    Post subject: By the way.... Reply with quote

The FAQ, by the way is very short, and leaves out important details like "Pulsing"...

It would be great if someone compiled a FAQ that turned into a living document, growing as your customer base grew. Smile

Just add that to the list of work for the over-burdened staff. They'll love you for it. Smile

Ok, enough teasing for now.
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vidarf



Joined: 12 May 2006
Posts: 504
Location: Narvik, Norway

PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 5:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just want to shoot an idea I have been thinking of:

The SYS cards outputs are pulsing because of the matrix/scan solution. Therefore they can't be used to drive a relay (unless you want to make an expensive and complex strobe light).
But what about designing a circuit that has a built-in delay? In other words, the first pulse turns the device on. Then it is kept on for some microseconds (or even half a second, which would be far more than needed) before it is switched off. In the meantime, a new pulse is given from the SYS cards, and the "timer" function is reset.
When the last pulse is given, some microseconds will pass before the relay is set to off.

This might be expensive and impractical for a larger setup, but it would be VERY handy to cope with real start switches, solenoid held switches and so on.

I do not have the knowledge to build something like this, but from the electronics I know this should not be that hard to make.

A very neat "add-on" to the SYS line of interface products. I would LOVE to be able to use the SYS cards as much as possible, keeping the number of interface solutions down.
Might not be the original intent for the SYS cards, but if it could be done, many simbuilders would get a lot of help.
I am not saying this is something that FDS should do, just that it would be great if someone could. Smile
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Michal



Joined: 02 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Peter, I am not complaining about the product at all. From what I've read it is very good for it's designed purpose. Probably the best.

I am only stating what I received via e-mail when inquiring about whether or not I could manage to get the boards to work for my intended purpose.

Since this builder is apparently using similar components in his sim, I thought the explanation that I received from FDS would be appropriate.

I didn't mean to step on any toes.
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pcos
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Joined: 03 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 8:58 am    Post subject: Thank you Reply with quote

Thanks guys..
My only concern is that some folks read one sentence and move on..
That happens alot these days.
I get concerned that someone passes this system by in that instance.
I think we can continue to grow the interface line. This year we need to build the database with everyone and see more and more Sims "light up".. that is the goal.
For the guys using real parts. Its always amazing to integrate into a setup. Been down that road as well buying a DC10 nose years ago..
For me? No SYS boards to make things easy, space and time. Sold it..
I do see alot fo options out here for interfacing real parts.
Most of them come in modules and tend to add up pretty fast though.
thanks for understanding guys.
PC
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alphajetsim



Joined: 08 Apr 2007
Posts: 30
Location: Arlington, Washington

PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vidarf -

You're probably right. I think I might be able to put in a fast-charge / slow-drain capacitor between the FDS-SYS board and the Darlington Pair transister. That way it will allow a slow & steady trickle of voltage out of the FDS-SYS board to the transistor that triggers the relay.

Then again, my knowledge of electronics is at the 101 level, so there is probably a better solution out there. I have someone with more experience checking with people with even more experience. Smile

I'll post the results, along with a simple wire diagram on my website.

After all is said and done, I'm still using the FDS-SYS board to drive my lights, but just not using it to "power" my lights. Wink
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alphajetsim



Joined: 08 Apr 2007
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Location: Arlington, Washington

PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 2:12 pm    Post subject: GOOD NEWS Reply with quote

FYI -- I just heard back from my dad working on the alphajet simulator. He said that the CAPACITOR fixed the relay buzzing problem so now our lighting problem is fixed!!!!

Vidarf, I'm not sure if you've tried that yet. Give it a shot.

If I new how to include attachments to these posts I'd show you the wiring diagram.

- Ron
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vidarf



Joined: 12 May 2006
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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you email me the diagram, I can post it here for you! Smile
vidar AT fagerjord.org
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vidarf



Joined: 12 May 2006
Posts: 504
Location: Narvik, Norway

PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2007 3:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here it is:

I'll let Ron explain. Pretty much what I had in mind, though.

EDIT 12. may:
I uploaded a new diagram; The old one had the capacitor in the wrong place.
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Last edited by vidarf on Sat May 12, 2007 8:42 am; edited 1 time in total
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Michal



Joined: 02 Oct 2006
Posts: 234
Location: USA

PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2007 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now that's just what I need.

What is the value of the cap? Just plain ol' ceramic?
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Stoney3K



Joined: 01 Aug 2005
Posts: 291
Location: Netherlands

PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2007 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just thinking simple here, but isn't it possible (And easier, perhaps) to replace the relay by an (optically triggered) solid state one? The SYS outputs are designed to drive LED's and that's exactly what's inside one of those solid state relays. (They consist of an LED and a phototransistor, basically a higher power version of an optocoupler). Has the added advantage of decoupling the 24V circuitry from the SYS boards, preventing damage.

A capacitor would do the job as well. Just make sure that the discharge R*C product is a bit longer than the time between two pulses.
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Michal



Joined: 02 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2007 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You mean eliminate the Darlington pair and just use a cap with a longer discharge time than the pulse width?
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